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	<title>Comments on: Chicks dig jerks?: Evolutionary psych on sex #1</title>
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	<description>For a greater understanding of the encultured brain and body...</description>
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		<title>By: Patti</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-10112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 21:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/?p=539#comment-10112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your blog response to the Dark Triad Research was facinating. Like you, I often read poplular press articles on the internet and search for the original research quoted and study the research methods section. 
As a researcher, professional speaker and body language expert I am currently writing about first impressions and I would like to know what recommendations to make to women who are drawn to men showing the &quot;Dark Triad&quot; characteristics. Do you think the research quoted above or other research shows in some way that woman are MORE attracted to these characteristics? I also think that men would hone the characteristics that won them women. Yet, I am curious is there any evidence of the nature vs. nurture on these traits? As a an expert what would you say are the traits women are attracted to? Why are they attracted to them? What are your warnings or recomendations?  Patti@PattiWood.net]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your blog response to the Dark Triad Research was facinating. Like you, I often read poplular press articles on the internet and search for the original research quoted and study the research methods section.<br />
As a researcher, professional speaker and body language expert I am currently writing about first impressions and I would like to know what recommendations to make to women who are drawn to men showing the &#8220;Dark Triad&#8221; characteristics. Do you think the research quoted above or other research shows in some way that woman are MORE attracted to these characteristics? I also think that men would hone the characteristics that won them women. Yet, I am curious is there any evidence of the nature vs. nurture on these traits? As a an expert what would you say are the traits women are attracted to? Why are they attracted to them? What are your warnings or recomendations?  <a href="mailto:Patti@PattiWood.net">Patti@PattiWood.net</a></p>
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		<title>By: Greg Downey: Top Twenty 2008 &#171; Neuroanthropology</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-4348</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Downey: Top Twenty 2008 &#171; Neuroanthropology]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] intelligence #1 Bad brain science: Boobs caused subprime crisis Our Blessed Lady of the Cerebellum Chicks dig jerks?: Evolutionary psych on sex #1 Psychiatry affects human psychology: e.g., ‘bipolar’ children We hate memes, pass it [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] intelligence #1 Bad brain science: Boobs caused subprime crisis Our Blessed Lady of the Cerebellum Chicks dig jerks?: Evolutionary psych on sex #1 Psychiatry affects human psychology: e.g., ‘bipolar’ children We hate memes, pass it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fumi Bankole</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-3351</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fumi Bankole]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/?p=539#comment-3351</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it&#039;s a phenomena - the woman attracted to bad boys thing - that is based on instinct. The ruthless, rule bending ways of the bad boy will ensure that he protects his even in the face of, say, a disaster. The woman can count on him to take matters into his own hands and not wait around for help from the authorities. He will find a way, albeit, illegal and unconventional. All the tough guy antics will be tolerated because in the face of chaos, the bad boy is like the roaches and the sharks; he&#039;ll be among the few to survive when the world goes to pot.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a phenomena &#8211; the woman attracted to bad boys thing &#8211; that is based on instinct. The ruthless, rule bending ways of the bad boy will ensure that he protects his even in the face of, say, a disaster. The woman can count on him to take matters into his own hands and not wait around for help from the authorities. He will find a way, albeit, illegal and unconventional. All the tough guy antics will be tolerated because in the face of chaos, the bad boy is like the roaches and the sharks; he&#8217;ll be among the few to survive when the world goes to pot.</p>
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		<title>By: It puts the lotion on its skin &#171; Confessions of a Dirt Warrior</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-2975</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[It puts the lotion on its skin &#171; Confessions of a Dirt Warrior]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Aug 2008 06:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/?p=539#comment-2975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Viagra will turn you into a &#8220;sex monster&#8221;, a delightfully spicy article from Bitch, a beautifully argued post from Neuroanthropology (part one &amp; part two) and just for you Mark, give Palin a break? TeH [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Viagra will turn you into a &#8220;sex monster&#8221;, a delightfully spicy article from Bitch, a beautifully argued post from Neuroanthropology (part one &amp; part two) and just for you Mark, give Palin a break? TeH [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-2760</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/?p=539#comment-2760</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was about to make the exact point Nora made and then read the comments. I think most of the particular arguments against this research are good, but not all, and that there are broad overgeneralizations made by the blog author. But let me add a bit to Nora&#039;s...in a non-industrial environment (i.e. nutritional stress about the same as it seems our ancestor&#039;s was), a single woman can only get pregnant once every 4-5 years or so. If we assume her man can keep her monogamous if he is and that there&#039;s no chance she&#039;s infertile, etc, we can say then that he&#039;ll have 1 offspring every 4-5 years for a total of about 5. He may have sex with her thousands of times, but there&#039;s no arguing that he&#039;ll get higher RS with that strategy. Now, if Bad Boy is really good at being bad and sleeps with 5 women every year (assuming he doesn&#039;t sleep with pregnant women), even using your 10% figure, he&#039;ll get .5 babies/year, or a total of about 10 in 20 years (though he could keep going well beyond this since he&#039;s not constrained by a single partner&#039;s menopause). # of partners is a much better way of estimating RS w/o birth control than # of times having sex because each event with the same woman has diminishing marginal utility in terms of reproduction. If event 1 has a 10% chance of resulting in a birth, event 2 would have 9% (10*90%), event 3 would have 8.1%, etc etc. The math gets even worse for monogamy when you throw in the evidence that non-monogamous sex activity is concentrated around the period of greatest fertility for women and that men produce more ejaculate with a non-monogamous partner.

There are easy ways to see how frequency dependence could work. The key is that no one is arguing bad guys get all the reproduction. At most it seems that only 20-30% of babies are born to &quot;non-social&quot; fathers. There are many strategies, each of which does better in certain circumstances. And men (and women) can try playing more than one &quot;strategy&quot; serially...etc etc. And you are correct in pointing out that women who are on BC may act differently than women who are not.

We know that many of these traits are correlated to testosterone, cortisol and estrogen and that the levels of those hormones are heritable. I believe there even are some candidate loci identified. But that&#039;s just one of a number of ways these could be genetically controlled.

What the paper needs is a good null model that gives the expected # of partners if women were not at all choosy---ie if each man had the same probability of finding a new mate with given effort. Then, you could determine if the difference between # of partners for &quot;good&quot; and &quot;bad&quot; guys can be fully explained by differing effort levels (which would be consistent with a &quot;women don&#039;t, in the aggregate, discriminate AGAINST bad guys or good guys&quot;), if it &quot;overexplains&quot; the data (suggesting that women do in fact avoid bad guys to some level) or &quot;underexplains&quot; the data (suggesting that women may in fact overselect bad guys). After that (and actually surveying women and probably some &quot;field studies&quot;), trying to find QTLs for such preferences (or at least hormonal or MRI correlates) would be a nice touch.

Certainly, culture can impact how genes are expressed. The availability of birth control is one example, and religious edicts are probably another. I will admit that it is very difficult to use contemporary sex data to answer evolutionary questions, but sometimes there are enough surveys, even with methodical problems, pointing to the same answer, that it becomes valid to think they may be valid.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was about to make the exact point Nora made and then read the comments. I think most of the particular arguments against this research are good, but not all, and that there are broad overgeneralizations made by the blog author. But let me add a bit to Nora&#8217;s&#8230;in a non-industrial environment (i.e. nutritional stress about the same as it seems our ancestor&#8217;s was), a single woman can only get pregnant once every 4-5 years or so. If we assume her man can keep her monogamous if he is and that there&#8217;s no chance she&#8217;s infertile, etc, we can say then that he&#8217;ll have 1 offspring every 4-5 years for a total of about 5. He may have sex with her thousands of times, but there&#8217;s no arguing that he&#8217;ll get higher RS with that strategy. Now, if Bad Boy is really good at being bad and sleeps with 5 women every year (assuming he doesn&#8217;t sleep with pregnant women), even using your 10% figure, he&#8217;ll get .5 babies/year, or a total of about 10 in 20 years (though he could keep going well beyond this since he&#8217;s not constrained by a single partner&#8217;s menopause). # of partners is a much better way of estimating RS w/o birth control than # of times having sex because each event with the same woman has diminishing marginal utility in terms of reproduction. If event 1 has a 10% chance of resulting in a birth, event 2 would have 9% (10*90%), event 3 would have 8.1%, etc etc. The math gets even worse for monogamy when you throw in the evidence that non-monogamous sex activity is concentrated around the period of greatest fertility for women and that men produce more ejaculate with a non-monogamous partner.</p>
<p>There are easy ways to see how frequency dependence could work. The key is that no one is arguing bad guys get all the reproduction. At most it seems that only 20-30% of babies are born to &#8220;non-social&#8221; fathers. There are many strategies, each of which does better in certain circumstances. And men (and women) can try playing more than one &#8220;strategy&#8221; serially&#8230;etc etc. And you are correct in pointing out that women who are on BC may act differently than women who are not.</p>
<p>We know that many of these traits are correlated to testosterone, cortisol and estrogen and that the levels of those hormones are heritable. I believe there even are some candidate loci identified. But that&#8217;s just one of a number of ways these could be genetically controlled.</p>
<p>What the paper needs is a good null model that gives the expected # of partners if women were not at all choosy&#8212;ie if each man had the same probability of finding a new mate with given effort. Then, you could determine if the difference between # of partners for &#8220;good&#8221; and &#8220;bad&#8221; guys can be fully explained by differing effort levels (which would be consistent with a &#8220;women don&#8217;t, in the aggregate, discriminate AGAINST bad guys or good guys&#8221;), if it &#8220;overexplains&#8221; the data (suggesting that women do in fact avoid bad guys to some level) or &#8220;underexplains&#8221; the data (suggesting that women may in fact overselect bad guys). After that (and actually surveying women and probably some &#8220;field studies&#8221;), trying to find QTLs for such preferences (or at least hormonal or MRI correlates) would be a nice touch.</p>
<p>Certainly, culture can impact how genes are expressed. The availability of birth control is one example, and religious edicts are probably another. I will admit that it is very difficult to use contemporary sex data to answer evolutionary questions, but sometimes there are enough surveys, even with methodical problems, pointing to the same answer, that it becomes valid to think they may be valid.</p>
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		<title>By: Nora</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-2755</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nora]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/?p=539#comment-2755</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The maximum number of children Good Boy can have is 1...&lt;/i&gt;
I guess I should specify: ignoring twins, and assuming that the scenario described is taking place over a short enough time scale that we&#039;re not talking about multiple pregnancies by the same woman.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The maximum number of children Good Boy can have is 1&#8230;</i><br />
I guess I should specify: ignoring twins, and assuming that the scenario described is taking place over a short enough time scale that we&#8217;re not talking about multiple pregnancies by the same woman.</p>
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		<title>By: Nora</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-2754</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nora]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/?p=539#comment-2754</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I agree with your opinion of this study in particular and evolutionary psychology in general, I have to call you on one point.

&lt;i&gt;Let me give you a hypothetical example of what I mean. Let’s assume that every time a man and woman have intercourse, there’s a 10% chance the woman gets pregnant (it’s actually about 20-25% during a cycle given normal fertility, which also varies). If Bad Boy sleeps with five women one time, he has a lower chance of successfully reproducing than if Good Boy sleeps with the same woman six times (and presumably, if Good Boy is spacing them out, he stands an even better chance of getting her at the right time of her cycle of ovulation). The Jonason method would assume, however, that Bad Boy is much more reproductively ’successful,’ when in fact he’s just ‘getting it’ with more women.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, in the scenario you describe, Bad Boy has a higher chance of reproductive success. The maximum number of children Good Boy can have is 1; assuming 10% fertility and 6 tries, the chance of him having 1 child is about 47% (1-.9^6, with .9^6 being the probability that she never gets pregnant). The chance of Bad Boy having 1 child after 5 tries with 5 different women turns out to be about 33% (.9^4*.1*5, for the chance that he gets one and only one particular woman pregnant, times the number of women), but you have to also factor in the 7.3% probability that he ends up with 2 children, the 0.8% probability that he ends up with 3 children, 0.045% chance that he gets 4 offspring, and .005% chance that he gets 5 offspring (forgive my sloppiness with significant figures). When you put it all together, the expected number of offspring for Bad Boy after having sex 5 times with 5 different women comes out to about 0.5, while the expected number of offspring for Good Boy after 6 times with the same woman was only .47. The reason is that once Good Boy&#039;s woman is pregnant, it&#039;s game over, while Bad Boy can keep trying and have a chance for additional offspring.

When you increase the fertility rate up to 20%, the discrepancy gets even bigger. Bad Boy&#039;s expected number of offspring is now 1, meaning on average his behavior will produce 1 child. Good Boy&#039;s expected number of offspring (after 6 times with one woman) increases as well, but only to 0.74. It&#039;s impossible for Good Boy&#039;s expected number of offspring to reach 1 even if he slept with the same woman 100 times, since that would mean that he had a 100% chance of getting that one woman pregnant. Bad Boy, on the other hand, now has a pretty decent shot at producing more than one offspring here. (The inherent upper limit of his expected number of offspring is 5, not 1.)

Of course, this doesn&#039;t take into account one of the points you mentioned, namely that Good Boy&#039;s behavior makes it more likely that he will hit his partner&#039;s maximum fertility window at least once. I&#039;m not sure what effect this would have; my gut suggests that it might not make that much of a difference because Bad Boy has 5 chances to hit the fertility jackpot, but if we take anything away from your post it&#039;s that gut feelings are no substitute for actual science.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with your opinion of this study in particular and evolutionary psychology in general, I have to call you on one point.</p>
<p><i>Let me give you a hypothetical example of what I mean. Let’s assume that every time a man and woman have intercourse, there’s a 10% chance the woman gets pregnant (it’s actually about 20-25% during a cycle given normal fertility, which also varies). If Bad Boy sleeps with five women one time, he has a lower chance of successfully reproducing than if Good Boy sleeps with the same woman six times (and presumably, if Good Boy is spacing them out, he stands an even better chance of getting her at the right time of her cycle of ovulation). The Jonason method would assume, however, that Bad Boy is much more reproductively ’successful,’ when in fact he’s just ‘getting it’ with more women.</i></p>
<p>Actually, in the scenario you describe, Bad Boy has a higher chance of reproductive success. The maximum number of children Good Boy can have is 1; assuming 10% fertility and 6 tries, the chance of him having 1 child is about 47% (1-.9^6, with .9^6 being the probability that she never gets pregnant). The chance of Bad Boy having 1 child after 5 tries with 5 different women turns out to be about 33% (.9^4*.1*5, for the chance that he gets one and only one particular woman pregnant, times the number of women), but you have to also factor in the 7.3% probability that he ends up with 2 children, the 0.8% probability that he ends up with 3 children, 0.045% chance that he gets 4 offspring, and .005% chance that he gets 5 offspring (forgive my sloppiness with significant figures). When you put it all together, the expected number of offspring for Bad Boy after having sex 5 times with 5 different women comes out to about 0.5, while the expected number of offspring for Good Boy after 6 times with the same woman was only .47. The reason is that once Good Boy&#8217;s woman is pregnant, it&#8217;s game over, while Bad Boy can keep trying and have a chance for additional offspring.</p>
<p>When you increase the fertility rate up to 20%, the discrepancy gets even bigger. Bad Boy&#8217;s expected number of offspring is now 1, meaning on average his behavior will produce 1 child. Good Boy&#8217;s expected number of offspring (after 6 times with one woman) increases as well, but only to 0.74. It&#8217;s impossible for Good Boy&#8217;s expected number of offspring to reach 1 even if he slept with the same woman 100 times, since that would mean that he had a 100% chance of getting that one woman pregnant. Bad Boy, on the other hand, now has a pretty decent shot at producing more than one offspring here. (The inherent upper limit of his expected number of offspring is 5, not 1.)</p>
<p>Of course, this doesn&#8217;t take into account one of the points you mentioned, namely that Good Boy&#8217;s behavior makes it more likely that he will hit his partner&#8217;s maximum fertility window at least once. I&#8217;m not sure what effect this would have; my gut suggests that it might not make that much of a difference because Bad Boy has 5 chances to hit the fertility jackpot, but if we take anything away from your post it&#8217;s that gut feelings are no substitute for actual science.</p>
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		<title>By: Azkyroth</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-2739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Azkyroth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/?p=539#comment-2739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The thing that&#039;s surprising about this particular line of research/reporting is, there isn&#039;t a completely obvious ulterior motive for those pushing these idea, like there usually is with, say, research on the supposed intellectual inferiority of women and/or non-whites.  

I guess there&#039;s &quot;But... but if women AREN&#039;T attracted to assholes then... why won&#039;t they sleep with MEEEE? :(&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that&#8217;s surprising about this particular line of research/reporting is, there isn&#8217;t a completely obvious ulterior motive for those pushing these idea, like there usually is with, say, research on the supposed intellectual inferiority of women and/or non-whites.  </p>
<p>I guess there&#8217;s &#8220;But&#8230; but if women AREN&#8217;T attracted to assholes then&#8230; why won&#8217;t they sleep with MEEEE? <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Girls gone guilty: Evolutionary psych on sex #2 &#171; Neuroanthropology</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2008/06/29/chicks-dig-aholes-evolutionary-psych-on-sex-1/#comment-2663</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Girls gone guilty: Evolutionary psych on sex #2 &#171; Neuroanthropology]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/?p=539#comment-2663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] back, I posted a piece on recent evolutionary psychology research on human sexuality, specifically Chicks dig jerks?: Evolutionary psych on sex #1. The previous post discussed a couple of research projects that have found a correlation between [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] back, I posted a piece on recent evolutionary psychology research on human sexuality, specifically Chicks dig jerks?: Evolutionary psych on sex #1. The previous post discussed a couple of research projects that have found a correlation between [...]</p>
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