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	<title>Comments on: Cave men in classrooms by Prof. Roger Schank</title>
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	<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/</link>
	<description>For a greater understanding of the encultured brain and body...</description>
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		<title>By: Months of the Year: Neuroanthropology 2008 &#171; Neuroanthropology</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-4361</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Months of the Year: Neuroanthropology 2008 &#171; Neuroanthropology]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] Our blog started on December 11th. Greg Downey introduced himself, Daniel Lende followed suit. Several of our important themes got started right away. Greg discussed the neuroanthropology of knowledge, the brains of conductors, and mirror neurons. He also delivered a popular post on Cave men in the classroom. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Our blog started on December 11th. Greg Downey introduced himself, Daniel Lende followed suit. Several of our important themes got started right away. Greg discussed the neuroanthropology of knowledge, the brains of conductors, and mirror neurons. He also delivered a popular post on Cave men in the classroom. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Girls closing math gap?: Troubles with intelligence #1 &#171; Neuroanthropology</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-2818</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Girls closing math gap?: Troubles with intelligence #1 &#171; Neuroanthropology]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-2818</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] genetic. Even the Flynn Effect, the fact that IQ scores tend to rise over time (discussed here and here at Neuroanthropology), strongly suggests that &#8216;intelligence&#8217; is a moving target, likely [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] genetic. Even the Flynn Effect, the fact that IQ scores tend to rise over time (discussed here and here at Neuroanthropology), strongly suggests that &#8216;intelligence&#8217; is a moving target, likely [...]</p>
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		<title>By: gregdowney</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-2765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gregdowney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-2765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin --

Can I suggest that you read the post.  Really.  If you don&#039;t see a pattern of agreement in this, then you need some help with your reading comprehension.  

And &#039;This is the academic culture&#039; -- &#039;Irrelevant corollaries... trifling minutiae...&#039;  Again, did you read the post, or did you just search for Schank&#039;s name and try to heap scorn on anyone not sufficiently adulating?  I liked Schank&#039;s piece, as I think the posting makes ABUNDANTLY clear; I just didn&#039;t agree with the evolutionary narrative that he employs.  Relax, Kevin -- no one&#039;s making fun of your man.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin &#8211;</p>
<p>Can I suggest that you read the post.  Really.  If you don&#8217;t see a pattern of agreement in this, then you need some help with your reading comprehension.  </p>
<p>And &#8216;This is the academic culture&#8217; &#8212; &#8216;Irrelevant corollaries&#8230; trifling minutiae&#8230;&#8217;  Again, did you read the post, or did you just search for Schank&#8217;s name and try to heap scorn on anyone not sufficiently adulating?  I liked Schank&#8217;s piece, as I think the posting makes ABUNDANTLY clear; I just didn&#8217;t agree with the evolutionary narrative that he employs.  Relax, Kevin &#8212; no one&#8217;s making fun of your man.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-2761</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-2761</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: Greg and Response 1 - rather than address the main point of the Schank argument you seem to prefer to expound upon largely irrelevant corollaries. Why? 

If Greg&#039;s point -  &quot;If, however, we believe that all the ‘information’ that determines the shape of our bodies and brains is not entirely in the nucleus of the egg and sperm cells that came together to form us, &lt;b&gt;then there’s no reason to assume that we are environmentally out-of-step&lt;/b&gt;.&quot; Really? Evidence of &lt;em&gt;some&lt;/em&gt; environmental influence on the mind is enough to convince you that that things aren&#039;t so bad after all. This is the academic culture - pick at trifling minutiae and find a means of dissent so you can show off your own ideas rather than sticking to the matter at hand. There&#039;s no glory in listening to and agreeing with others, is there. This exemplifies a separate point Schank often likes to make - nobody remembers what a lecturer says in class, they only remember their own contribution to the discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Greg and Response 1 &#8211; rather than address the main point of the Schank argument you seem to prefer to expound upon largely irrelevant corollaries. Why? </p>
<p>If Greg&#8217;s point &#8211;  &#8220;If, however, we believe that all the ‘information’ that determines the shape of our bodies and brains is not entirely in the nucleus of the egg and sperm cells that came together to form us, <b>then there’s no reason to assume that we are environmentally out-of-step</b>.&#8221; Really? Evidence of <em>some</em> environmental influence on the mind is enough to convince you that that things aren&#8217;t so bad after all. This is the academic culture &#8211; pick at trifling minutiae and find a means of dissent so you can show off your own ideas rather than sticking to the matter at hand. There&#8217;s no glory in listening to and agreeing with others, is there. This exemplifies a separate point Schank often likes to make &#8211; nobody remembers what a lecturer says in class, they only remember their own contribution to the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: IQ, Environment &#38; Anthropology &#171; Neuroanthropology</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[IQ, Environment &#38; Anthropology &#171; Neuroanthropology]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-36</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Cave men in classrooms by Prof. Roger&#160;Schank [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Cave men in classrooms by Prof. Roger&nbsp;Schank [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clare</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 07:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-30</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The arguments against &quot;traditional&quot; classrooms in which teachers talk and students listen are by now pretty plentiful.  Two things strike me: first, that the kind of informal learning described by the good doctor, and well documented in the anthropological literature, depend critically upon the desire of the learner to learn whatever skill it is that they see others using.  How social systems stimulate interest seems to me to be as important as understanding how learning (and teaching, in such contexts) goes on.  Second, given the many apparent strikes against the lecture-style or &quot;bank deposit&quot; model of instruction, why does it work at all?  No doubt many, many people find it boring and uninteresting.  On the other hand, you can&#039;t argue that learners and thinkers haven&#039;t emerged from seemingly unpromising instructional contexts.  Maybe the idea of the &quot;bank deposit&quot; isn&#039;t always a bad one, in that there are times when you just have to dump a lot of information into someone else&#039;s head, and they just have to memorize it, and that&#039;s that.  (I&#039;m reminded of the experiences of Paul Stoller becoming a sorcerer, as described in his book, &quot;In Sorcery&#039;s Shadow.  It wasn&#039;t all relaxed, enriching, learning-by-doing; much of the early going was listening, memorizing and regurgitating....)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The arguments against &#8220;traditional&#8221; classrooms in which teachers talk and students listen are by now pretty plentiful.  Two things strike me: first, that the kind of informal learning described by the good doctor, and well documented in the anthropological literature, depend critically upon the desire of the learner to learn whatever skill it is that they see others using.  How social systems stimulate interest seems to me to be as important as understanding how learning (and teaching, in such contexts) goes on.  Second, given the many apparent strikes against the lecture-style or &#8220;bank deposit&#8221; model of instruction, why does it work at all?  No doubt many, many people find it boring and uninteresting.  On the other hand, you can&#8217;t argue that learners and thinkers haven&#8217;t emerged from seemingly unpromising instructional contexts.  Maybe the idea of the &#8220;bank deposit&#8221; isn&#8217;t always a bad one, in that there are times when you just have to dump a lot of information into someone else&#8217;s head, and they just have to memorize it, and that&#8217;s that.  (I&#8217;m reminded of the experiences of Paul Stoller becoming a sorcerer, as described in his book, &#8220;In Sorcery&#8217;s Shadow.  It wasn&#8217;t all relaxed, enriching, learning-by-doing; much of the early going was listening, memorizing and regurgitating&#8230;.)</p>
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		<title>By: agustinfuentes</title>
		<link>http://neuroanthropology.net/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[agustinfuentes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/cave-men-in-classrooms-by-prof-roger-schank/#comment-28</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Along these lines I think it is also important to think not about “what” we are adapted for but rather how the myriad of adaptations, structural plasticity and experiential shaping, all interact in producing neurological function associated with behavior (here I agree fully with Greg).  Looking backward at any specific point of adaptation and then trying to explain a lack of fit with “modern” contexts misses the point of an adaptively and inherently flexible system whose operations (behavior) are contingent and co-existent with a series of emergent properties (the human “mind”).   A good example of some places to start looking for issues of learning and function might be Tetsuro Matsuzawa’s recent work demonstrating differing types of social cognition formation in chimpanzees and humans.  

From the abstract
This paper aims to compare cognitive development in humans and chimpanzees to illuminate the evolutionary origins of human cognition. Comparison of morphological data and life history strongly highlights the common features of all primate species, including humans. The human mother-infant relationship is characterized by the physical separation of mother and infant, and the stable supine posture of infants, that enables vocal exchange, face-to-face communication, and manual gestures. The cognitive development of chimpanzees was studied using the participation observation method. It revealed that humans and chimpanzees show similar development until 3 months of age. However, chimpanzees have a unique type of social learning that lacks the social reference observed in human children. Moreover, chimpanzees have unique immediate short-term memory capabilities. Taken together, this paper presents a plausible evolutionary scenario for the uniquely human characteristics of cognition.

It is social referencing that seems core for human cognitive development (and probably learning as well).  If this is the case, then “classroom learning” or test based learning as a unit might not be the most salient thing to focus on, but rather the social and interactive context in which information is transmitted in the classroom, the structures of assessment, etc…  Some major learning in humans can (and does) go  on in a classroom, but the context and they way the classroom is structured  then becomes very important. (see also Herrmann, E., Call, J., Hernandez-Lloreda, M.V., Hare, B. and Tomasello, M. (2007) Humans have evolved specialized skills of social cognition: the cultural intelligence hypothesis. Science 317:1360-1366)


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071203094823.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/dec/04/animalbehaviour.evolution 
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/desc/2007/00000010/00000001/art00016]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Along these lines I think it is also important to think not about “what” we are adapted for but rather how the myriad of adaptations, structural plasticity and experiential shaping, all interact in producing neurological function associated with behavior (here I agree fully with Greg).  Looking backward at any specific point of adaptation and then trying to explain a lack of fit with “modern” contexts misses the point of an adaptively and inherently flexible system whose operations (behavior) are contingent and co-existent with a series of emergent properties (the human “mind”).   A good example of some places to start looking for issues of learning and function might be Tetsuro Matsuzawa’s recent work demonstrating differing types of social cognition formation in chimpanzees and humans.  </p>
<p>From the abstract<br />
This paper aims to compare cognitive development in humans and chimpanzees to illuminate the evolutionary origins of human cognition. Comparison of morphological data and life history strongly highlights the common features of all primate species, including humans. The human mother-infant relationship is characterized by the physical separation of mother and infant, and the stable supine posture of infants, that enables vocal exchange, face-to-face communication, and manual gestures. The cognitive development of chimpanzees was studied using the participation observation method. It revealed that humans and chimpanzees show similar development until 3 months of age. However, chimpanzees have a unique type of social learning that lacks the social reference observed in human children. Moreover, chimpanzees have unique immediate short-term memory capabilities. Taken together, this paper presents a plausible evolutionary scenario for the uniquely human characteristics of cognition.</p>
<p>It is social referencing that seems core for human cognitive development (and probably learning as well).  If this is the case, then “classroom learning” or test based learning as a unit might not be the most salient thing to focus on, but rather the social and interactive context in which information is transmitted in the classroom, the structures of assessment, etc…  Some major learning in humans can (and does) go  on in a classroom, but the context and they way the classroom is structured  then becomes very important. (see also Herrmann, E., Call, J., Hernandez-Lloreda, M.V., Hare, B. and Tomasello, M. (2007) Humans have evolved specialized skills of social cognition: the cultural intelligence hypothesis. Science 317:1360-1366)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071203094823.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071203094823.htm</a><br />
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/dec/04/animalbehaviour.evolution" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/dec/04/animalbehaviour.evolution</a><br />
<a href="http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/desc/2007/00000010/00000001/art00016" rel="nofollow">http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/desc/2007/00000010/00000001/art00016</a></p>
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